Hi all,

I've begun my IFR taining and at the same time, racking up the cross
country hours required for the ticket.

I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that would
help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I have:

1) My CFII suggested I plan routes that VOR hop

2) Another CFII suggested I take along IFR enroute charts and look them over
while enroute

3) it occured to me to select alternates and plan fuel reserves as if this
was IMC.

Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC that
would help?

thanks

Gregg

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:56:34 GMT, gregg > wrote:

> Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC that
>would help?


Get really good at being able to fly without any radio aids.

Picture yourself on a nice IFR flight where ceilings are about 2000
OVC and 3 to 5 miles in mist and haze. Great for a low time IFR
pilot. You're flying along in the soup "fat, dumb, and happy," when
you notice an electrical problem. Over the course of the next 10
minutes you lose everything. No navs, no comms, hand held GPS decides
to crap out too. You know the terrain below you is under 1000 MSL and
fairly flat so you chose to feel your way to the base of the clouds.
All of this takes place without anymore undue stress than you're
already under. Now, clear of clouds, you take out your sectional (you
do carry sectionals when flying IFR don't you?) and need to navigate
to a suitable landing facility. Completely stressed and under a low
deck, without any navigational aides, can you get to an airport 30
miles away and know where you are while doing it? Or is getting to
the destination harder than handling the emergency in the soup?

Having written the above example off the top of my head, there may be
some holes in it you could pick apart. My intent is that someday you
could be left with only your VFR skills and a map to bail you out of a
jam and you need those basic skills to be ingrained in you enough that
you can do them while under more stress than will ever be placed on
you in a training environment.

The regs call for added VFR cross country time for a reason. You need
to be extremely proficient in these skills. If the law makers wanted
to increase your instrument skills for this requirement, they would
have made the reg pertain to IFR cross countries, not VFR cross
countries.

Bottom line, I'd say do your cross countries with the radios off. Use
your finger and a map, and make some flights to hard to find grass
strips if possible. Your IFR training will do enough for you to
function well in the Instrument environment, its up to you to ensure
your other skills are up to snuff.

Sorry for the book.
z

gregg > wrote:
>Hi all,
>
> I've begun my IFR taining and at the same time, racking up the cross
>country hours required for the ticket.
>
> I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that would
>help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I have:
>
>1) My CFII suggested I plan routes that VOR hop
>
>2) Another CFII suggested I take along IFR enroute charts and look them over
>while enroute
>
>3) it occured to me to select alternates and plan fuel reserves as if this
>was IMC.
>
> Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC that
>would help?

Early in your IFR training, the most important flying skill you can
develop is what's known as BAI: Basic Attitude Instruments. This is
the ability to hold heading and altitude on instruments without even
thinking about it (so you have your full brainpower left to think
about things like navigation and procedures). So, find a safety pilot
(a fellow instrument student would be a perfect choice) and bring them
along so you can get some hood time.

Practice holding heading and altitude exactly. See if you can go 10
minutes without deviating 5 degrees in heading or 50 feet in altitude.
Practice rolling out of turns exactly on your target heading, and
stopping climbs and descents exactly on your target altitude.
Practice making turns at exactly standard rate.

Experiment to find what power setting and pitch attitude will give you
a 500 fpm descent at 90 kts. This is what you will be flying an ILS
at in many common trainers (172 or Archer, for example). Talk to your
instructor to make sure he agrees with 90 kts for an ILS; if not, find
out what speed he/she recommends, work out the descent rate to track a
3 degree glideslope, and then figure out what power setting and pitch
attitude gets you that.

If you are not comfortable talking to ATC, get as much ATC exposure as
you can. Plan all your trips to towered airports. Get flight
following. Talk to FSS to get weather updates and give them pireps.

Practice tracking VOR radials and identifying VOR cross-fixes. Give
yourself radial interception problems to practice.

Most of the above you can really do on your own without an instructor
(but with a safety pilot!) Once you can hold (and change) heading and
altitude precisely while reading a chart and talking to ATC, you've
got half the battle won. Everything builds on that.

zatatime wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:56:34 GMT, gregg > wrote:
>
>> Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC
>> that
>>would help?
>
>
> Get really good at being able to fly without any radio aids.

< good stuff snipped>
>
> Bottom line, I'd say do your cross countries with the radios off. Use
> your finger and a map, and make some flights to hard to find grass
> strips if possible. Your IFR training will do enough for you to
> function well in the Instrument environment, its up to you to ensure
> your other skills are up to snuff.
>
> Sorry for the book.


Book is fine, z thanks.

Right now my VFR XC flying is 60-40 pilotage-radio. I'm good at radial
intercepts, using the VOR to figure drift, get to my destination. Quie
comfy with most VOR work but I'm not happy, at this time, unless I know
where I am by landmark/sectional. And that's how I get from A to B -
pilotage.

In thinking this over, it occured to me that I could probably improve a lot
on DR. Also, using DME - the 152's I got my PPL in weren't equiped with
those. I've done some sim time with them but I could use more.

thanks for the good ideas.

Gregg

Roy Smith wrote:


> Early in your IFR training, the most important flying skill you can
> develop is what's known as BAI: Basic Attitude Instruments. This is
> the ability to hold heading and altitude on instruments without even
> thinking about it (so you have your full brainpower left to think
> about things like navigation and procedures). So, find a safety pilot
> (a fellow instrument student would be a perfect choice) and bring them
> along so you can get some hood time.
>
> Practice holding heading and altitude exactly. See if you can go 10
> minutes without deviating 5 degrees in heading or 50 feet in altitude.
> Practice rolling out of turns exactly on your target heading, and
> stopping climbs and descents exactly on your target altitude.
> Practice making turns at exactly standard rate.

Good ideas but I think I might prefer to do this locally and not while on
an XC. for XC's I'd like to do better with DR - pilotage and VOR work is
good.

>
> Experiment to find what power setting and pitch attitude will give you
> a 500 fpm descent at 90 kts. This is what you will be flying an ILS
> at in many common trainers (172 or Archer, for example). Talk to your
> instructor to make sure he agrees with 90 kts for an ILS; if not, find
> out what speed he/she recommends, work out the descent rate to track a
> 3 degree glideslope, and then figure out what power setting and pitch
> attitude gets you that.

Good idea though I think I'd rather do that locally and not on XC's.

>
> If you are not comfortable talking to ATC, get as much ATC exposure as
> you can. Plan all your trips to towered airports. Get flight
> following. Talk to FSS to get weather updates and give them pireps.

Comfy with ATC and FSS. I fly out of a Class D near Boston - under part of
the Boston Class B layer.

>
> Practice tracking VOR radials and identifying VOR cross-fixes. Give
> yourself radial interception problems to practice.

Do pretty good at these. though my PPL work in a 152 didn't have DME - I
could practice with that now that I fly a Warrior

> Most of the above you can really do on your own without an instructor
> (but with a safety pilot!) Once you can hold (and change) heading and
> altitude precisely while reading a chart and talking to ATC, you've
> got half the battle won. Everything builds on that.

Good ideas, thanks

Gregg

In article <m_0yd.303337$R05.271951@attbi_s53>,
gregg > wrote:
> I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that would
>help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I have:

Go somewhere challenging. You can get your 50 hours with T&Gs at airports
50nm away, but if you want to learn something go on a real trip. Reserve
the plane for a whole weekend. Cross states, mountain ranges, entire
weather systems. Go to Canada and clear customs. There's plenty of
complexity in XC flight, even if the weather is VFR the whole way.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

Gregg,

Another thought....

On your X/C's, request "flight following" and use it if it's approved.
You get an intro to the "typical" types of communications you'll
encounter on an IFR flight including things like squawk codes, traffic
callouts, frequency handoffs, and such.

--
Mark Dunn CFI/CFI-I (DXR/POU)
(remove the nospam to reply)

Mark Dunn wrote:

> Gregg,
>
> Another thought....
>
> On your X/C's, request "flight following" and use it if it's approved.
> You get an intro to the "typical" types of communications you'll
> encounter on an IFR flight including things like squawk codes, traffic
> callouts, frequency handoffs, and such.
>

Thanks. I always use FF.

Gregg

Ben Jackson wrote:

> In article <m_0yd.303337$R05.271951@attbi_s53>,
> gregg > wrote:
>> I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that
>> would
>>help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I have:
>
> Go somewhere challenging. You can get your 50 hours with T&Gs at airports
> 50nm away, but if you want to learn something go on a real trip. Reserve
> the plane for a whole weekend. Cross states, mountain ranges, entire
> weather systems. Go to Canada and clear customs. There's plenty of
> complexity in XC flight, even if the weather is VFR the whole way.
>

Ah well that's the fun part. So far i've flown to Nantucket and Martha's
Vineyard (twice), Northern New Hampshire and Maine.

Next I'm branching out to Bradley in Connecticut, from thre to Albany, then
back to home base (Beverly Mass.).

After that comes Dayton Ohio to meet a good buddy/pilot of mine.

Then Pennsylvania....

I'm really looking forward to stretching out beyond New England.

Gregg

gregg > wrote:
> After that comes Dayton Ohio to meet a good buddy/pilot of mine.
>
> Then Pennsylvania....

Hmmm. If you're in New England and you're still thinking that
Pennsylvania comes after Ohio, I think you might want to bone up on map
reading :-)

Why don't you get some IFR training, and come back later to do the XC
flights? That way you will be able to apply your IFR skills. VFR Flight
Following functions basically the same as IFR except for the VFR
limitation. You don't even need a safety pilot as long as you fly
visually, and you can even fly the approaches.



gregg > wrote in
news:m_0yd.303337$R05.271951@attbi_s53:

> Hi all,
>
> I've begun my IFR taining and at the same time, racking up the cross
> country hours required for the ticket.
>
> I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that
> would
> help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I
> have:
>
> 1) My CFII suggested I plan routes that VOR hop
>
> 2) Another CFII suggested I take along IFR enroute charts and look
> them over while enroute
>
> 3) it occured to me to select alternates and plan fuel reserves as if
> this was IMC.
>
> Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR
> XC that
> would help?
>
> thanks
>
> Gregg

Roy Smith wrote:

> gregg > wrote:
>> After that comes Dayton Ohio to meet a good buddy/pilot of mine.
>>
>> Then Pennsylvania....
>
> Hmmm. If you're in New England and you're still thinking that
> Pennsylvania comes after Ohio, I think you might want to bone up on map
> reading :-)


HAHAH no no I GO TO pennsylvania after I go to Ohio. I have to see my buddy
first (he's in Ohio). Penn comes later timewise ;^)

Gregg

Roy Smith wrote:

> gregg > wrote:
>> After that comes Dayton Ohio to meet a good buddy/pilot of mine.
>>
>> Then Pennsylvania....
>
> Hmmm. If you're in New England and you're still thinking that
> Pennsylvania comes after Ohio, I think you might want to bone up on map
> reading :-)


Heh no. It's timewise not locationwise:

I have a good friend who lives in Ohio - ex-Navy fighter pilot and Air
Guard pilot. He and I have been friends for about 10 years. When I visited
him a while back he took me up and taught me how to get in and out of spins
because that's not part of the PPL syllabus and I wanted to learn. He gave
me a lot of encouragement and advice while working towards my PPL.

And now, next time I go out there it'll be me flying, not in an airliner
because he's going to teach me how to fly formation, with another buddy.
And a few other tidbits like "power flares".

As for Pennsylvania, well my girlfriend's family lives in Scranton and she
wants us to fly there.

Now, my view is that the ohio trip comes first - them's my priorities. ;^)
Course I'll have to gas up in Penn, most likely, on my way to Ohio.

What do you think? ;^)

Gregg

gregg > wrote:

> What do you think? ;^)
>
> Gregg

I think you're going to have a lot of fun.

"gregg" > wrote in message
news:m_0yd.303337$R05.271951@attbi_s53...
> Hi all,
>
> I've begun my IFR taining and at the same time, racking up the cross
> country hours required for the ticket.
>
> I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that
would
> help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I have:
>
> 1) My CFII suggested I plan routes that VOR hop
>
> 2) Another CFII suggested I take along IFR enroute charts and look them
over
> while enroute
>
> 3) it occured to me to select alternates and plan fuel reserves as if this
> was IMC.
>
> Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC
that
> would help?
>
> thanks
>
> Gregg


If your destination X-C airport has a navaid on the field, ask the tower if
you can enter a hold over it. If the controller seems to be slow and there's
not already a published hold on your approach plates, ask them to make up a
hold radial for you, then figure out the best entry.


--
-smc

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 23:20:41 GMT, gregg > wrote:

>
> Book is fine, z thanks.
>
> Right now my VFR XC flying is 60-40 pilotage-radio. I'm good at radial
>intercepts, using the VOR to figure drift, get to my destination. Quie
>comfy with most VOR work but I'm not happy, at this time, unless I know
>where I am by landmark/sectional. And that's how I get from A to B -
>pilotage.
>
> In thinking this over, it occured to me that I could probably improve a lot
>on DR. Also, using DME - the 152's I got my PPL in weren't equiped with
>those. I've done some sim time with them but I could use more.
>
>thanks for the good ideas.
>
>Gregg


Your welcome. I'm glad you see the real world value in it. At 60-40
I'd say you're like many pilot's out there. I'm a purist and would
say to shoot for 100% w/o radios, but the realist in me says if you
can get to 90-10, you'll be in good shape.

In reading your other responses it also sounds like you've got a good
plan as to how to build your time. The trips you have planned will
give you flights over varied terrain which you should learn alot from.

Good Luck!

z

On 21 Dec 2004 17:42:36 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:

>So, find a safety pilot
>(a fellow instrument student would be a perfect choice) and bring them
>along so you can get some hood time.


I didn't look up the reg, but would think even if it doesn't violate
the letter of the law, doing your VFR cross countries under the hood
would violate the intent of the law.

What VFR skills are honed under the hood?

z

Gregg,

What gives you the idea the croscountries must be VFR? Fly them under the
hood and log them as both crosscountry and simulated instrument time. That
is what I did and my DPE was happy with it.

Daniel

"gregg" > wrote in message
news:m_0yd.303337$R05.271951@attbi_s53...
> Hi all,
>
> I've begun my IFR taining and at the same time, racking up the cross
> country hours required for the ticket.
>
> I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that would
> help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I have:
>
> 1) My CFII suggested I plan routes that VOR hop
>
> 2) Another CFII suggested I take along IFR enroute charts and look them
> over
> while enroute
>
> 3) it occured to me to select alternates and plan fuel reserves as if this
> was IMC.
>
> Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC
> that
> would help?
>
> thanks
>
> Gregg

Also an excellent pilot shop(Airways) on the field at LNS.


> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:14:47 GMT, gregg > wrote:
>
>>Now, my view is that the ohio trip comes first - them's my priorities. ;^)
>>Course I'll have to gas up in Penn, most likely, on my way to Ohio.
>
>
> Lancaster PA has an excellent restaurant on the field, and the people
> are friendly.

I'm at the latter stages of ifr training and currently doing this.....

Use the low altitude charts. Know exactly where you are based on your
instruments, not pilotage. Use a scale, time, and the chart to estimate
your position and compare with the gps. Turn off (or just don't look at )
the gps. At all times be prepared to tell atc your location. Consider wind
and how it affects your alternate. There are a million little details.
Keep calculating endurance. Write down actual leg time and compare with
predicted. At an intersection, check how accurate you are by looking at the
gps. Believe me, you can stay busy the entire time.

Ask for a vfr practice approach of your choice upon arrival.

"gregg" > wrote in message
news:m_0yd.303337$R05.271951@attbi_s53...
><snip> Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR
>XC that
> would help?
>
> thanks
>
> Gregg

Peter MacPherson wrote:

> Also an excellent pilot shop(Airways) on the field at LNS.
>
>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:14:47 GMT, gregg > wrote:
>>
>>>Now, my view is that the ohio trip comes first - them's my priorities.
>>>;^) Course I'll have to gas up in Penn, most likely, on my way to Ohio.
>>
>>
>> Lancaster PA has an excellent restaurant on the field, and the people
>> are friendly.


Peter and CFEYEYE..lancaster, PA eh? You make it sound nice......

Gregg

Daniel L. Lieberman wrote:

> Gregg,
>
> What gives you the idea the croscountries must be VFR?

Well I don't have the idea that they have to be VFR. But I'll be doing many
of the next hours of XC VFR as I'l be adding challenges on each trip.


>Fly them under the
> hood and log them as both crosscountry and simulated instrument time. That
> is what I did and my DPE was happy with it.

After a while I'll probably do that.

thanks

Gregg

>
> Daniel
>
> "gregg" > wrote in message
> news:m_0yd.303337$R05.271951@attbi_s53...
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've begun my IFR taining and at the same time, racking up the cross
>> country hours required for the ticket.
>>
>> I'm wondering what things I could do in these strictly VFR XC's that
>> would
>> help me learn/gain insight or facility with the IFR world. So far I
>> have:
>>
>> 1) My CFII suggested I plan routes that VOR hop
>>
>> 2) Another CFII suggested I take along IFR enroute charts and look them
>> over
>> while enroute
>>
>> 3) it occured to me to select alternates and plan fuel reserves as if
>> this was IMC.
>>
>> Are there any other things that could be done during a strictly VFR XC
>> that
>> would help?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> Gregg

In respect to the airport, LNS(Lancaster, PA) is a nice airport. Good
restaurant on the field and very nice(and big) pilot shop. Be aware though
that the restaurant and the pilot shop are a hike from each other. I parked
in front of the restaurant and then taxied down to the pilot shop
afterwards.
The pilot shop does have a shuttle though that will pick you up at the
restaurant. I've never ventured outside the airport.



"gregg" > wrote in message
news:M1oyd.619877$D%.374423@attbi_s51...
> Peter MacPherson wrote:
>
>> Also an excellent pilot shop(Airways) on the field at LNS.
>>
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 01:14:47 GMT, gregg > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Now, my view is that the ohio trip comes first - them's my priorities.
>>>>;^) Course I'll have to gas up in Penn, most likely, on my way to Ohio.
>>>
>>>
>>> Lancaster PA has an excellent restaurant on the field, and the people
>>> are friendly.
>
>
> Peter and CFEYEYE..lancaster, PA eh? You make it sound nice......
>
> Gregg
>

There is not requirement that they be VFR cross countries, it only
specifies cross country hours. Some of my X-C hours were dual in actual
IMC.

zatatime wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2004 17:42:36 -0500, (Roy Smith) wrote:
>
>
>>So, find a safety pilot
>>(a fellow instrument student would be a perfect choice) and bring them
>>along so you can get some hood time.
>
>
>
> I didn't look up the reg, but would think even if it doesn't violate
> the letter of the law, doing your VFR cross countries under the hood
> would violate the intent of the law.
>
> What VFR skills are honed under the hood?
>
> z

gregg wrote:

>> Practice holding heading and altitude exactly. See if you can go 10
>> minutes without deviating 5 degrees in heading or 50 feet in altitude.
>> Practice rolling out of turns exactly on your target heading, and
>> stopping climbs and descents exactly on your target altitude.
>> Practice making turns at exactly standard rate.
>
> Good ideas but I think I might prefer to do this locally and not while on
> an XC.

That's fine. Your safety pilot can play ATC and give you heading and
altitude changes.

[...]
>> If you are not comfortable talking to ATC, get as much ATC exposure as
>> you can. Plan all your trips to towered airports. Get flight
>> following. Talk to FSS to get weather updates and give them pireps.
>
> Comfy with ATC and FSS. I fly out of a Class D near Boston - under part
> of
> the Boston Class B layer.

That's good. I know people trained in a similar situation under the Newark
class B that are not too comfortable with ATC.

- Andrew

Roy Smith wrote:

> gregg > wrote:
>> After that comes Dayton Ohio to meet a good buddy/pilot of mine.
>>
>> Then Pennsylvania....
>
> Hmmm. If you're in New England and you're still thinking that
> Pennsylvania comes after Ohio, I think you might want to bone up on map
> reading :-)

I used to live in Philadelphia. Pennsylvania would be at the bottom of my
list too.

BTW, Gregg, BVY, eh? I was just there a few weekends ago. The tower told
me to call an FBO that was closed, but it was on the wrong frequency
anyway. I had to taxi to the other side of the field for fuel, but they'd
no tie-downs there. Of course, there weren't transient tie-downs on the
side to which I was directed, either.

A little non-FBO called something like New England Aviator was very kind to
me, letting me borrow someone's tie down for a couple of days. Alas,
they're not permitted to fuel transients.

Rather weird place.

- Andrew

Peter MacPherson wrote:

> In respect to the airport, LNS(Lancaster, PA) is a nice airport. Good
> restaurant on the field and very nice(and big) pilot shop. Be aware though
> that the restaurant and the pilot shop are a hike from each other. I
> parked in front of the restaurant and then taxied down to the pilot shop
> afterwards.
> The pilot shop does have a shuttle though that will pick you up at the
> restaurant. I've never ventured outside the airport.

I've never even been to the restaurant, but I can highly recommend Airways.
They've toys for pilots and aviation-interested-kids. One of my son's
favorite books is one I picked up there.

[I worry about him. The book walks him through a kind of preflight, but he
keeps wanting to open the door before flight. Not a skydiver, I hope.
Perhaps a CFI?]

A fellow club member (and USENETer) has weekended in that neighborhood (off
the field, oddly enough {8^) recently, and he speaks highly of it and the
local Amish.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon > wrote:
> That's good. I know people trained in a similar situation under the Newark
> class B that are not too comfortable with ATC.

There is no "Newark Class B". It's the "New York Class B", and don't
you forget it :-)

Roy Smith wrote:

> Andrew Gideon > wrote:
>> That's good. I know people trained in a similar situation under the
>> Newark class B that are not too comfortable with ATC.
>
> There is no "Newark Class B". It's the "New York Class B", and don't
> you forget it :-)

I expect your confusion stems from that funny accent used on the other side
of the Hudson.

<Laugh>

- Andrew